Curse

bhavv · Apr 26, 2011, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Funny thread

Though for a more serious buff, I would suggest the following:

Strength - For each point in Strength, you gain +1% armor penetration and +1% damage.

Tactics - For each point in Tactics, you gain +1 Armor, and +2 health

Thats right, a little help for Mo/Ws too

. It still wouldnt bring warriors up to the same level as the dervs, but it would help them a bit more overall.

yum · Apr 26, 2011, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Goes back to my question on page four or five 'how is nerfing dervishes the solution to a lack of depth in their gameplay?'. It isn't, but introducing some depth into their gameplay might seem like a nerf to people who just want to spam abilities and win. To clarify my point about both this and bulls, giving dervs a 3s bulls would be a pretty big buff, but it would inarguably add depth to their gameplay and make it easier for a skilled derv to distinguish himself from your average faceroller. The problem, as I pointed out originally (although apparently not clearly enough), is that some of their abilities are so strong that bulls might not even get run. Bulls allows you to create situations that overcome a standard melee weakness that dervs simply don't have. It does more than that of course, but perhaps not enough more that it would see use.

Err.. not all classes are born equal. Some are retarded the day they were born (derv, paragon). Honestly, just nuke the derv. Like floor said, you don't have a class in pvp, you play whatever is required.

And no, giving an OP class a more OP skill is bland stupid. And this is just for the sake of "diversity"? I say &^(@! diversity then.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

Err.. not all classes are born equal. Some are retarded the day they were born (derv, paragon). Honestly, just nuke the derv. Like floor said, you don't have a class in pvp, you play whatever is required.

And no, giving an OP class a more OP skill is bland stupid. And this is just for the sake of "diversity"? I say &^(@! diversity then.

Well, I was trying to be realistic. I guess a lot of people are just venting though. Do you honestly think the dev team is going to put months of work into a dervish revamp so they can nuke them, or are you just blowing off steam?

BTW, since I'm over asking people, I'm going to assume you're using the definition of OP that others seem to be using, which is 'requiring no skill to use well'. I don't think bulls fits.

zan the healer · Apr 26, 2011, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

Battle Rage Shout. (for ims + ias) gain 20 armor and gain 33% more adrenaline. move 33% faster (Avatar of Balthazar)
.

going to stop you right here

avatar of balthazar
Elite Form. (10...74...90 seconds.) You gain +20 armor against physical damage, you gain adrenaline 33% faster, your attacks deal holy damage, you inflict Burning (3 seconds) on nearby foes whenever you lose a Dervish enchantment.
it only gives increased adrenaline gain, +20 armor against physical they still are vulnerable to eles and a aoe burning it
DOES NOT
^^^^ its on its own line so you can see it
give ims or ias
the skill you are looking for is
Onslaught
Wind Prayers
Elite Flash Enchantment Spell. For 3...13...15 seconds, you attack, move and gain adrenaline 25% faster.

if your too jealous of this skill it does not restrict your weapon to just scythes, and its in wind prayers so its not derv exclusive

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

After spending the last 10 minutes reading this thread, people still seem to be failing to understand very basic concepts, amazing really.

Since everyone is fully aware of the pros of warriors and dervishes (i hope) let me quickly summarise the cons of each of the two professions.

Warriors: Take double damage whilst in frenzy. Cannot use IAS + IMS together. ALL KD skills are conditional or have drawbacks (shock gives exhaustion, bull strike target must be moving etc), the "good" warrior skills generally cost 5-8 adrenaline so cannot be spammed. warriors only have +2 energy regen. Interupt skills (d chop etc) must actually hit a target to function, they can be blocked.

Dervishes: none.

I am not opposed to dervishes whatsoever, I think its great that there is a frontline profession which essentially outputs "pressure" rather than just raw damage. Unfortunately dervishes in their present form output too much damage alongside this pressure, and they also need far more negative effects to using their skills, hitting buttons in order is not necessarily fun for most people. Its nice to have to select an appropriate skill for a desired effect, and then use it at the correct time, and if you mis time it, there is no/minimal effect - ie, skillful play.

I also do not understand this idea of "warrior is ur main so ur butt hurt". Sorry but in pvp you do not have a "main". You play frontline, this could be warrior, dervish, or assasin, (or paragon and ranger in some builds). It just so happens that some of these professions require more thought to operate the bars correctly than dervishes do at present. Most frontliners i know do not dislike dervish as a profession, what they are opposed to though is being forced to switch from bars which require mental thought to operate correctly, to brainless spam bars.

ALL KD skills are conditional or have drawbacks

Dervishes: none.

-from my knowledge dervs only have 2 kds reaper sweep and shield of force

shield of force requires someone to hit you... its a exact clone of shield bash but a little more op since its adjacent kd and does not require a shield

reaper sweep a derv wouldnt be caught dead with since its a elite that requires 8adr

so what are you complaining about

Interupt skills (d chop etc) must actually hit a target to function

our only interrupt skill like this is lyssas haste

it also has a 25 second cooldown (recently nerfed to that)

our other interrupt is lyssa's assault that actually has to hit

Cannot use IAS + IMS together

this i will agree with :P but you can easily take a shout/or run spell from the dervish tree since they are in wind prayers and not derv exclusive

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

There's a pretty clear difference between spoon feeding and being unable to answer simple questions in order to clearly present your point of view. Continuing with the ad hominem line doesn't imply that you belong in the former camp, for reference.

That was an objective observation not ad hominem.

Then again, maybe you are just flat out trolling, which would make sense, considering that you've replied to almost every post in this thread.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 04:24 PM // 16:24

The implication behind your use of inclusive language was fairly apparent, don't be insulting please

I think someone else already pointed out that most people have been replying to me btw, I've simply been conversing with them. The ridiculous thing about it is the antagonistic attitude people have taken towards the conversation, when I was actually just trying to get them to think through and clearly express what they have a problem with so that they can argue it coherently and not be ignored out of hand by the devs due to being unable to do so.

I've said it a million times, spamming 'derv op nerf plx' is pointless, except as some kind of group therapy session I guess.

yum · Apr 26, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

BTW, since I'm over asking people, I'm going to assume you're using the definition of OP that others seem to be using, which is 'requiring no skill to use well'. I don't think bulls fits.

In the hand of right players, bull is OP. 3s kd and 100+ damage with no drawback (no e,adre lost nor exhaustion) only 5e and only 8s recharge.

And you want to add that on top of a pile of OP shit? The people who use bull well will abuse it to no end.

pinkeyflower · Apr 26, 2011, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

The ridiculous thing about it is the antagonistic attitude people have taken towards the conversation, when I was actually just trying to get them to think through and clearly express what they have a problem with so that they can argue it coherently and not be ignored out of hand by the devs due to being unable to do so.

I've said it a million times, spamming 'derv op nerf plx' is pointless, except as some kind of group therapy session I guess.

If the devs don't know what needs fixing even though there are a plethora of skills then they are [insert adjective that you think is appropriate].

I have to agree with Ka Tet. Unless you a) don't play PvP, b) are a dervish, or c) are very slow you should be able to see what problems there are. The devs should know this, you should know it. And fixes have been suggested in a more appropriate thread, not a troll thread.

Still Number One · Apr 26, 2011, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by zan the healer

reaper sweep a derv wouldnt be caught dead with since its a elite that requires 8adr

Reaper's sweep isn't used currently because there are better options. The 8 adrenaline really isn't that big of a deal for an Elite KD, Magehunter's and Earth Shaker get along just fine.

I actually run a Reaper's Sweep bar quite often and completely wreck people with it. If you use Balthazar's rage as an enchantment to fuel the KD then it is almost as effective as using enraging charge to fuel another hammer KD. The adren gain to fuel reaper's sweep really isn't an issue at all.

The funny thing is that Reaper's sweep actually is kinda OP, but no one will see that because it will never be used while the Avatars, Onslaught, Ebon Dust, and Wounding Strike are in the current states they are.

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

The implication behind your use of inclusive language was fairly apparent, don't be insulting please

I think someone else already pointed out that most people have been replying to me btw, I've simply been conversing with them. The ridiculous thing about it is the antagonistic attitude people have taken towards the conversation, when I was actually just trying to get them to think through and clearly express what they have a problem with so that they can argue it coherently and not be ignored out of hand by the devs due to being unable to do so.

I've said it a million times, spamming 'derv op nerf plx' is pointless, except as some kind of group therapy session I guess.

So, you're a s self-appointed, self-help guru and life coach. Good thing too, the internet needs more of those.

To analogize, people are saying, "2 x 5 = 10."
You're saying, "Show your work."
The few people who actually respond to you will be condescending because you're either making that request because you genuinely do not know that, "2 x 5 = 10," which means you have no place in the discussion, or you feel that people should justify themselves by overly elaborating something simple in order to win your approval.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

So, you're a s self-appointed, self-help guru and life coach. Good thing too, the internet needs more of those.

To analogize, people are saying, "2 x 5 = 10."
You're saying, "Show your work."
The few people who actually respond to you will be condescending because you're either making that request because you genuinely do not know that, "2 x 5 = 10," which means you have no place in the discussion, or you feel that people should justify themselves by overly elaborating something simple in order to win your approval.

To win my approval? Please.

You know what else should be obvious? The value of a coherent argument when you want something. You know what else is obvious? The people who like to argue 'it should be obvious' are the ones who can't/won't back up their statements with anything of substance. Several have in fact backtracked on their statements or have been unable to respond to direct questions. In nine pages I've seen all of two reasoned and rational statements in favour of dervish nerfs, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

Hell, even now you've got someone defining OP in a completely different way. I don't even know what they're complaining about. Too much pressure I assume, preferring longer matches and more viability for teams without a frontline.

The arguments that have stood up to even a flimsy inspection:
1. Dervish skills do not reward skillful play, or punish a lack of skill.
2. Dervishes put out enough pressure that they do not reward skillful play from the team, they don't need to capitalise well on small opportunities, because dervs create huge opportunities constantly.
3. Dervish pressure teams are shutting out other kinds of team.

pinkeyflower · Apr 26, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

To win my approval? Please.

You know what else should be obvious? The value of a coherent argument when you want something. You know what else is obvious? The people who like to argue 'it should be obvious' are the ones who can't/won't back up their statements with anything of substance. Several have in fact backtracked on their statements or have been unable to respond to direct questions. In ten pages I've seen all of two reasoned and rational statements in favour of dervish nerfs, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

Hell, even now you've got someone defining OP in a completely different way. I don't even know what they're complaining about. Too much pressure I assume, preferring longer matches and more viability for teams without a frontline.

You're right, no-one cares about your approval. People have tried to help you understand but everytime someone gives you an answer you keep asking why and even when they have given satisfactory answers you either continue to say why or find something else to respond to. You've said you've found some arguments that you are inclined to. Good, now move along. Honestly, I feel like I'm talking to a door.

Last statement, ???????

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

To win my approval? Please.

You know what else should be obvious? The value of a coherent argument when you want something. You know what else is obvious? The people who like to argue 'it should be obvious' are the ones who can't/won't back up their statements with anything of substance. Several have in fact backtracked on their statements or have been unable to respond to direct questions. In nine pages I've seen all of two reasoned and rational statements in favour of dervish nerfs, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

Hell, even now you've got someone defining OP in a completely different way. I don't even know what they're complaining about. Too much pressure I assume, preferring longer matches and more viability for teams without a frontline.

Give me your specific list of questions.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

Give me your specific list of questions.

Well, they've been answered, but sure, I can give you the one that started all the fuss. I guess the best way to phrase it would be: 'What are you hoping will be achieved by a dervish nerf?' I tried to phrase it in several different ways, but that seems to sum it up.

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Well, they've been answered, but sure, I can give you the one that started all the fuss. I guess the best way to phrase it would be: 'What are you hoping will be achieved by a dervish nerf?' I tried to phrase it in several different ways, but that seems to sum it up.

Balance.
There ya go. Now please quit trolling.

deluxe · Apr 26, 2011, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Well, they've been answered, but sure, I can give you the one that started all the fuss. I guess the best way to phrase it would be: 'What are you hoping will be achieved by a dervish nerf?' I tried to phrase it in several different ways, but that seems to sum it up.

I don't really understand what you're trying to prove here, just stop posting please.
Floor's post says exactly what we want.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

Balance.
There ya go. Now please quit trolling.

Well that was one of the two initial replies I got, but it leads to the question 'How are you defining balance?'

People keep saying balance, but most have been unable to say what they're sitting on the other end of the scale, and that's filled a few with a fair bit of rage, which obviously gets pointed in my direction for asking the question in the first place (see below).

So what are you sitting on the other end of the scale? What do you want to see dervs balanced against?

pinkeyflower · Apr 26, 2011, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

Balance.
There ya go. Now please quit trolling.

No no no. You've failed to address the question fully. Next thing will be how will it create balance? What is balance? How does balance work with a dervish? This one word answer simply will not suffice.

Edit: Prophecy fulfilled.

Azazello · Apr 26, 2011, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

I don't really understand what you're trying to prove here, just stop posting please.
Floor's post says exactly what we want.

Yeah Floor and Fate Crusher both presented really good arguments. The kind that convince people rather than just worsen that signal to noise ratio. Zan did present an interesting counterpoint to one of Floors points about KDs up the page a bit though.

Ka Tet · Apr 26, 2011, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Well that was one of the two initial replies I got, but it leads to the question 'How are you defining balance?'

People keep saying balance, but most have been unable to say what they're sitting on the other end of the scale, and that's filled a few with a fair bit of rage (see below), which obviously gets pointed in my direction for asking the question in the first place.

So what are you sitting on the other end of the scale? What do you want to see dervs balanced against?

How are you defining sitting?
See what I did there?